Does God Love Everyone? - 3
God Does Not Love Sinners
I've been working on the question of whether God loves all people. I've been doing so because there's a lot of confusion on this matter, and I can say that until the last few years I was very unclear on it myself. As usual, these blog posts serve to help me think through the question personally, and open up the possibility of some healthy discussion on the subject - feel free to participate.
The whole question was triggered by a fairly simple statement made by someone dear to me. At the time there was no opportunity for this discussion, but I very much wanted to air out my thoughts and see if they held up under the light of God's Word.
Part 1: "God loves sinners too, Alan." I knew there was truth in this comment, but I also knew that there was room for misunderstanding. The misunderstanding often begins with a case of mistaken identity: we fail to see that we are ALL sinners. The implication therefore is that God must somehow love sinners, or love no man at all.
Part 2: I very briefly explored the ultimate effect of sin on us: we're all dead. The Bible pulls no punches on this; it covers the topic of sin in excrutiating detail and terrifying depth. We are no more capable of making any move towards God than a corpse is towards fresh air. In fact, the real issue is not ability but desire. We do not wish to please God or be anywhere near Him. Natural enemies. We don't go to hell to die, we're already dead. We go to hell because that's where we belong.
Now for Part 3:
God Does Not Love Sinners
"Wait a minute! I thought you said God loves all people!"
Well, actually, I didn't.
"But, as you pointed out, the Bible says we're all sinners... and the Bible also says that God loves the whole world. Common sense, therefore, demands that God loves sinners!"
Now therein lies the confusion for most of us. While some deny that we're sinners at all, most of us acknowledge that at least some of us are sinners - but also that God hates the sin not the sinner. Well, that's a nice sentiment, but not how God sees things. As Beyond Zaphon points out in a comment to Part 1, the Bible states that God hates all who sin. In Proverbs 16, there are 7 things the Lord is said to hate, and each one of them is a person who commits specific sins - most of which are fairly common to all men (lying, pride, etc.)
When we diminish the importance and impact of sin on humanity, when we brush it aside so that we can talk about a loving God, we fail to understand why we even need God's love in the first place. After all, if we're all pretty decent, and God is simply a loving Papa, then how great is this much-touted love after all? And why on earth would He need to suffer such abuse and degradation at the hands of man. And why would he need to be crushed and forsaken by His Father? These are desperate measures, and they can only point to the desperate need of man.
Aside: There is currently a brand of heresy claiming that God did not punish Jesus on our behalf. I'm not going to refute that in any detail here, but suffice to say that this represents a denial of Christ's mission, of the Father's love, and sacred scripture itself.
Man does not need to love himself, to accept himself, to forgive himself. He is DEAD. He needs to have his just penalty paid by someone else. He has rebelled against an infinite God, and will suffer infinite punishment as a result. Only the Son of God, God-become-man-yet-still-God, Jesus Christ, can bear this punishment for us. I'm not talking about the brutality inflicted upon Jesus by the Jews and Romans, that was nothing compared to His spiritual suffering. What was the source of this spiritual torment? Was it man? No. Was it the devil? No.
It was God.
According to the Holy Spirit, through the lips of His prophet Isaiah, God "caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him." Struck down. Pierced through. Put to grief. Crushed. All by His own Father.
Listen - for us to understand the depth of the love of God that is at work in all this, we have to first understand the depth of our depravity. The whole human race stands condemned! Salvation from Jesus is not about being spared hell. Salvation from Jesus is not about being saved from the claws of Satan and his demonic host. It is not even about being saved from misery here on earth.
We are saved from God Himself.
"For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly... God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. " (Romans 5:6-9)
Why? Because we have grossly offended an infinitely just God. He will settle all accounts because He is completely just, and recompense each man according to his own actions. That's not good news for us, because "All have sinned." We are criminals in the eyes of God. And the punishment for sin is death. Ours.
"Cursed is he who does not abide by all the things written in the book of the Law so as to perform them (Deut 27). Prior to conversion I was under the very curse of God. What does it mean to be under the curse of God? It means that the sinner is so vile, so sickening, so wicked, so loathsome, not only before a Holy God but a Holy heaven, that the last thing that sinner will hear as he takes his first step into hell is all creation applauding God because God’s rid the earth of him."
- Paul Washer
For all of us have become like one who is unclean (defiled),
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
And all of us wither like a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
(Isaiah 64:6)
God clearly despises sinners.
I've been working on the question of whether God loves all people. I've been doing so because there's a lot of confusion on this matter, and I can say that until the last few years I was very unclear on it myself. As usual, these blog posts serve to help me think through the question personally, and open up the possibility of some healthy discussion on the subject - feel free to participate.
The whole question was triggered by a fairly simple statement made by someone dear to me. At the time there was no opportunity for this discussion, but I very much wanted to air out my thoughts and see if they held up under the light of God's Word.
Part 1: "God loves sinners too, Alan." I knew there was truth in this comment, but I also knew that there was room for misunderstanding. The misunderstanding often begins with a case of mistaken identity: we fail to see that we are ALL sinners. The implication therefore is that God must somehow love sinners, or love no man at all.
Part 2: I very briefly explored the ultimate effect of sin on us: we're all dead. The Bible pulls no punches on this; it covers the topic of sin in excrutiating detail and terrifying depth. We are no more capable of making any move towards God than a corpse is towards fresh air. In fact, the real issue is not ability but desire. We do not wish to please God or be anywhere near Him. Natural enemies. We don't go to hell to die, we're already dead. We go to hell because that's where we belong.
Now for Part 3:
God Does Not Love Sinners
"Wait a minute! I thought you said God loves all people!"
Well, actually, I didn't.
"But, as you pointed out, the Bible says we're all sinners... and the Bible also says that God loves the whole world. Common sense, therefore, demands that God loves sinners!"
Now therein lies the confusion for most of us. While some deny that we're sinners at all, most of us acknowledge that at least some of us are sinners - but also that God hates the sin not the sinner. Well, that's a nice sentiment, but not how God sees things. As Beyond Zaphon points out in a comment to Part 1, the Bible states that God hates all who sin. In Proverbs 16, there are 7 things the Lord is said to hate, and each one of them is a person who commits specific sins - most of which are fairly common to all men (lying, pride, etc.)
When we diminish the importance and impact of sin on humanity, when we brush it aside so that we can talk about a loving God, we fail to understand why we even need God's love in the first place. After all, if we're all pretty decent, and God is simply a loving Papa, then how great is this much-touted love after all? And why on earth would He need to suffer such abuse and degradation at the hands of man. And why would he need to be crushed and forsaken by His Father? These are desperate measures, and they can only point to the desperate need of man.
Aside: There is currently a brand of heresy claiming that God did not punish Jesus on our behalf. I'm not going to refute that in any detail here, but suffice to say that this represents a denial of Christ's mission, of the Father's love, and sacred scripture itself.
Man does not need to love himself, to accept himself, to forgive himself. He is DEAD. He needs to have his just penalty paid by someone else. He has rebelled against an infinite God, and will suffer infinite punishment as a result. Only the Son of God, God-become-man-yet-still-God, Jesus Christ, can bear this punishment for us. I'm not talking about the brutality inflicted upon Jesus by the Jews and Romans, that was nothing compared to His spiritual suffering. What was the source of this spiritual torment? Was it man? No. Was it the devil? No.
It was God.
According to the Holy Spirit, through the lips of His prophet Isaiah, God "caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him." Struck down. Pierced through. Put to grief. Crushed. All by His own Father.
Listen - for us to understand the depth of the love of God that is at work in all this, we have to first understand the depth of our depravity. The whole human race stands condemned! Salvation from Jesus is not about being spared hell. Salvation from Jesus is not about being saved from the claws of Satan and his demonic host. It is not even about being saved from misery here on earth.
We are saved from God Himself.
"For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly... God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. " (Romans 5:6-9)
Why? Because we have grossly offended an infinitely just God. He will settle all accounts because He is completely just, and recompense each man according to his own actions. That's not good news for us, because "All have sinned." We are criminals in the eyes of God. And the punishment for sin is death. Ours.
"Cursed is he who does not abide by all the things written in the book of the Law so as to perform them (Deut 27). Prior to conversion I was under the very curse of God. What does it mean to be under the curse of God? It means that the sinner is so vile, so sickening, so wicked, so loathsome, not only before a Holy God but a Holy heaven, that the last thing that sinner will hear as he takes his first step into hell is all creation applauding God because God’s rid the earth of him."
- Paul Washer
For all of us have become like one who is unclean (defiled),
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
And all of us wither like a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
(Isaiah 64:6)
God clearly despises sinners.
Comments
How would you handle the issue of "common grace?" It seems to me that at least temporarily God shows mercy (love) to the non-elect. Just curious about your take on this.
As to common grace, I think you probably have a much better understanding than I. I'll be plodding through that in another exciting episode.
May I never get over it. Someone has said that in Romans 9 when it states Jacob I loved, Esau I hated...what should cause us to marvel, truly marvel is not so much the Esau I hated, but the "Jacob I loved".
Let us have the same love for our enemies as God has toward His.
Dave Hammond
Perhaps that concern could be assuaged by saying that we should just love everyone since we don't know exactly who is elected and who isn't. But that would mean that we would be loving people that God doesn't, and that would seem unlike God to ask us to do something he wouldn't do Himself.
The thought of God hating everyone whom he did not elect does raise some interesting questions about the capacity of a human to love an "un-elected sinner", which God has clearly enabled many missionaries (and others) to do who weep real tears for the lost, many of whom are forever lost (i.e. un-elected).
It also makes one wonder whom Jesus meant when, on the cross, he said, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." Perhaps he only meant to include the elect, but it would take a bit of isogesis to get there in that context.
Alan, FYI, Zaphon (Dave) and I are neighbors and have a running dialog on the merits of Calvin. I beg your forgiveness if my comment introduces divisiveness into your blog...in which case I trust that you will delete the comment, and I can pose the question to Dave over the fence. Otherwise, I expect, as always, the rebuttal to be convincing.
Seriously, if my comment isn't appropriate, delete it. I'm not in the best state with God right now and I wouldn't want to lead anyone astray.
Best regards,
Byron
Welcome to the discussion. I don't have a rebuttal for you; at least not at this point. There's a good chance my final post in this little series will answer some of your valid concerns.
I've been using this series of posts to help (me) think through the difficult subject of God's love. Some might think I'm overcomplicating things if I think God's love is a challenging topic, but I would contend that they are not thinking hard enough. I know; I've been in that place most of my life. God's love raises tough questions, and I'm only touching on a few of them here - really, only one.
I'll try and close out this train of thought in the fourth post soon. Please review that when it appears and let's resume the discussion then.
Alan
I appreciate your agreeable tone.
I will attempt to respond to your intelligent questions and comments, but I state upfront it is with humility and appreciate any corrections based on the Bible.
First I wll attempt to give perspicuity to my comment. I was simply trying to convey if an infinitely Holy and righteous God can love a wretch like me, and that savingly, than surely I should humble myself and love my enemies, as I am a fellow sinner. Whatever they have done against me, does not compare to what I have done against God.
Next section: I don’t necessarily think that Christ’s imperative to love our enemies is anything different than He did while on earth. Of course I am not speaking of a salvific love and His distinguishing and electing favor, and clearly neither was Jesus in that command, as we can save no one. Did Christ not bestow kind graces to Judas and the pharisees. Did Christ not give food to multiudes whowould later leave Him after He said “No one can come to me unless it has been granted to Him by my Father” (jn 6:65) (in 6:66 they left) I would call this common grace. In contex,t Christ was refuting the pharissee’s false interpretation of only loving your neighbor. Proverbs clearly teaches give food and drink to your enemies.
Besides, I personally do not have a problem even if God does ask us to do something He doesn’t. He is God and He is free to require what he wants.
Now for “Father forgive them for they know ot what they do.”)
I have no reason to believe that those for whom Christ prayed for in that passage are not saved. ACT 2-3 speak of thousands of people being saved and Peter states, speaking of the cross, in ACTS 3:17 “I know that you did it in ignorance...” After all, you have Jesus plainly stating in John 17:9, “I do not pray for the world, but those you have given me out of the world.” This, the night before! ( on a side note this gives insight into Jn 3:16) The Bible clearly teaches Jesus intercedes for those whom He died for. The Arminians pit the Father against the Son. (Heb 7-10) As if Jesus would say..
“I paid the penalty for their sin please forgive them” and then God say “nope..I will charge them as well because they were not virtuous enough or wise enough to believe on their own.” This false teaching does violence to the doctrine of the trinity. It also makes God unjust.
I hope this offers some persepective. I know it is lacking, but these questions are beyond the scope of a blog. I freely will receive correction fro anyone on these sublime topics.
Dave
Thanks for the kind welcome to the discussion. Clearly the topics on the dock here are amongst the most contentious between conservative Christians, so if they can be discussed with love and grace, that in itself would be a small victory.
Dave, thanks for weighing in to help clarify my understanding of your comments. I will try to recap your position as I now understand it to be:
- God and Jesus wouldn't do anything that is out of character with the other (as witnessed by Zaphon's "does violence to the doctrine of the Trinity" comment
- God and Jesus have some measure of non-salvific love/compassion for the world in general...but saving love only for the elect
- When Jesus commands us to "love our enemies", He means that we should love everbody, not just the elected enemies, and that's ok because we aren't capable of "saving love" like God and Jesus are
- You're ok with God requiring us to do something that He wouldn't do
I think that those positions remain true to a Calvinist view of scripture...with some caveats on that last one. For instance, I presume that you aren't insinuating that God would require us to love sin or to love someone whom He hates (primarily because, in the context of this overall discussion, He hates that person for the same reason He hates sin). Clearly, God would not require something of us that would do violence to His own character.
You will notice that I have taken a card out of the Obama playbook and have not declared any beliefs of my own. It's sort of a dirty tactic because you don't give your "partner" in debate any position to attack you on. I also hope that I have not attacked your positions and that I have accurately represented them.
Your and Alan's comments have certainly caused me to think deeper on the matter of the limits of God's love. Ultimately, I need a lot more wisdom and faith to get my head and heart around these issues. While it might work for Mr. Obama, in reality you can't just disagree with the other guy and never have something that you actually do believe.
Best regards,
Byron
You for the most part fairly represented what I stated. I will provide a little clarification in a minute. As for acurately representing Calvinists, I do not know. As Spurgeon says Calvinsim is just a nickname for Christianity. If you mean those strickly follow John Calvin and his every interpretation...I don’t know.... because I have not read Calvin’s commentaries.
A little clarity on your bullet points
1) Right on....nothing to add.
2)Right on...Theologans call non-salvific love common grace.
3)Fairly accurate. As only God knows whose names have been in the book of life since before the foundations of the world. (Rev) The other part “and that’s okay....” is not phrased well. Reread my post and I figure you can get the point I was trying to make better than how you phrased it.
4) I did not phrase well. As any student of the Bible knows “It is God who works in you both to WILL and to DO His good pleasure.” (Phil 2:13) I will need to re-think that comment. Which I am not up to right now.
Thankyou for stating how you understood what I was trying to communicate, rather than remonstrating (see the remonstrants :-)) based on a misunderstanding. See you over the fence friend.
Dave
Nice little Spurgeon zinger in there. Funny thing...I once heard a JW say the same thing ;-)
It is always good to be right about something and everyone else be wrong. That JW believed that in his heart of hearts.
Paul said something about "knowing in part" and "seeing through a glass darkly" that I cling to when faced with issues that are difficult to reconcile. Sometimes trying to reconcile those elements feels like an evolutionist trying to color in the missing links. Maybe you get it right on inspiration from God, or maybe, as my Pastor says, that inspiration you felt was really last night's meatloaf talking.
One thing is for sure, you can sure feel like you got the answer, only to find out later that it was meatloaf.
And then there's faith.
BB