Revisit: Does God Love Those Who Will Never Believe?
The last post generated some very interesting discussion. I wanted to respond to a few of the comments, but it got lengthy and made more sense as a new post. The main focus here is God's love for the unelect - those who will never truly be His and will not gain eternal life.
Dave: "I am not a Greek scholar but as a layman I can see that “world” [in John 3:16] has at least five different meanings in the NT.
>> I agree that Kosmos has at least five general meanings: creation, the present age, world system, adornment and people. However, none of these definitions equates to "elect" or "chosen."
Dave: I think the context is clear...we have Jesus talking with Nicodemus (a Jewish Pharisee) about how in the past God provided healing for the Jews by lifting up a brass serpent, but under the new covenant, saving is not for the Jews only, but for the whole(believing) world. (those from every tribe, tongue and nation)...... by looking to Jesus (who became sin, as the serpent represents - and brass, symboling judged) hanging on the tree."
>> Jesus was telling Nicodemus that his birth into the human line of Abraham was not sufficient - that even a Jew needed a spiritual birth in order to enter into the Abrahamic covenant of faith. So, yes, I can see that Jesus emphasis here is that salvation is for the whole world - without distinction to race. Thanks for nudging me into that greater context. However, this does not deliver any constraint on "world" - as with similar NT verses (Rom 10:12-13) it speaks inclusively of all races, not exclusively of particular people.
Also, with due attention to context, I'm curious as to how you would interpret "world" in v19.
Dave: Outside of this controversal verse, we do not see one verse in the Gospels, Acts, or the Epistles speaking of God loving everyone in the whole world.
>> I agree that the vast majority of verses mentioning God's love, have believers as the object of His love. But how about this, "But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us..." (Titus 3:4-5a) This suggests that God has a love for man in general that spurs Him to rescue some. Also, as previously mentioned, Psalms 104 and especially 145. Jesus also speaks of God's goodness both to believers and unbelievers, "“But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." (Matthew 5:44-45)
MacArthur writes, "The fact that some sinners are not elected to salvation is no proof that God’s attitude toward them is utterly devoid of sincere love. We know from Scripture that God is compassionate, kind, generous, and good even to the most stubborn sinners. Who can deny that these mercies flow out of God’s boundless love? Yet it is evident that they are showered even on unrepentant sinners. According to Paul, for example, the knowledge of divine goodness and forbearance and patience ought to lead sinners to repentance (Rom. 2:4). Yet the apostle acknowledged that many who are the recipients of these expressions of divine love spurn them and thereby store up wrath for themselves in the day of wrath (v. 5). The hardness of the sinful human heart is the only reason people persist in their sin, despite God’s goodness to them. Is God therefore insincere when He pours forth mercies calling them to repentance? And how can anyone conclude that God’s real attitude toward those who reject His mercies is nothing but sheer hatred? (MacArthur, The God Who Loves)
For me there is something quite incredible about God's love. Why He loves. How He loves. How His love perfectly coexists with His wrath and justice. How, in measure, He loves those that will ultimately suffer His eternal wrath. Paul refers to, "the love of God that surpasses knowledge." (Eph 3:19) The matter of God's love is so sublime that we cannot fully grasp it. That's not to say that we can't understand any of it; after all, this statement occurs in the middle of a prayer which asks that believers be "able to comprehend... and to know" this love of God. God's love is to be studied, to be experienced, to be appreciated, and to be returned to the utmost of our ability.
Dave: "I am not a Greek scholar but as a layman I can see that “world” [in John 3:16] has at least five different meanings in the NT.
>> I agree that Kosmos has at least five general meanings: creation, the present age, world system, adornment and people. However, none of these definitions equates to "elect" or "chosen."
Dave: I think the context is clear...we have Jesus talking with Nicodemus (a Jewish Pharisee) about how in the past God provided healing for the Jews by lifting up a brass serpent, but under the new covenant, saving is not for the Jews only, but for the whole(believing) world. (those from every tribe, tongue and nation)...... by looking to Jesus (who became sin, as the serpent represents - and brass, symboling judged) hanging on the tree."
>> Jesus was telling Nicodemus that his birth into the human line of Abraham was not sufficient - that even a Jew needed a spiritual birth in order to enter into the Abrahamic covenant of faith. So, yes, I can see that Jesus emphasis here is that salvation is for the whole world - without distinction to race. Thanks for nudging me into that greater context. However, this does not deliver any constraint on "world" - as with similar NT verses (Rom 10:12-13) it speaks inclusively of all races, not exclusively of particular people.
Also, with due attention to context, I'm curious as to how you would interpret "world" in v19.
Dave: Outside of this controversal verse, we do not see one verse in the Gospels, Acts, or the Epistles speaking of God loving everyone in the whole world.
>> I agree that the vast majority of verses mentioning God's love, have believers as the object of His love. But how about this, "But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us..." (Titus 3:4-5a) This suggests that God has a love for man in general that spurs Him to rescue some. Also, as previously mentioned, Psalms 104 and especially 145. Jesus also speaks of God's goodness both to believers and unbelievers, "“But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." (Matthew 5:44-45)
MacArthur writes, "The fact that some sinners are not elected to salvation is no proof that God’s attitude toward them is utterly devoid of sincere love. We know from Scripture that God is compassionate, kind, generous, and good even to the most stubborn sinners. Who can deny that these mercies flow out of God’s boundless love? Yet it is evident that they are showered even on unrepentant sinners. According to Paul, for example, the knowledge of divine goodness and forbearance and patience ought to lead sinners to repentance (Rom. 2:4). Yet the apostle acknowledged that many who are the recipients of these expressions of divine love spurn them and thereby store up wrath for themselves in the day of wrath (v. 5). The hardness of the sinful human heart is the only reason people persist in their sin, despite God’s goodness to them. Is God therefore insincere when He pours forth mercies calling them to repentance? And how can anyone conclude that God’s real attitude toward those who reject His mercies is nothing but sheer hatred? (MacArthur, The God Who Loves)
For me there is something quite incredible about God's love. Why He loves. How He loves. How His love perfectly coexists with His wrath and justice. How, in measure, He loves those that will ultimately suffer His eternal wrath. Paul refers to, "the love of God that surpasses knowledge." (Eph 3:19) The matter of God's love is so sublime that we cannot fully grasp it. That's not to say that we can't understand any of it; after all, this statement occurs in the middle of a prayer which asks that believers be "able to comprehend... and to know" this love of God. God's love is to be studied, to be experienced, to be appreciated, and to be returned to the utmost of our ability.
Comments
Friend.....brother,
Thanks for your thoughtful response to some of my input. I will state upfront in this response that we are in agreement. We are in agreement with the core of the matter which is... “in measure, He loves those that will ultimately suffer His eternal wrath.” How one defines “measure” would be where many theologians spend there time trying to properly communicate. Dr. MacArthur worded it as follows “We know from Scripture that God is compassionate, kind, generous, and good even to the most stubborn sinners. Who can deny that these mercies flow out of God’s boundless love?” I am in agreement with the spirit this phrase. Perhaps I over simplify it, but I sum it up with the theological term common grace.
Titus 3:4-5a - I am not sure but I think I agree with how you interpret that verse. I do believe one could make a good case , however, that in that verse is still refering to believers because of verse 3. I feel at a loss not knowing Greek. (Perhaps this blog will push me over the edge and get me into a Greek class :-) )
John 3:19 - Well....I am still convinced 3:16 is of ones who are sinners, haters of God, wretches, dead in their sins, (much as I was) believers scattered abroad (see John 11:51) I think world in 3:19 is either refering to everyone in the world or to the “world of unGodly” Peter speaks of in 2 Pet 2:5. John 3:16 must refer to the world of the Godly because of the REASON for sending the Son....Which is so that the “believing ones may have eternal life” (whosoever does not exist in Greek) As Dr. White says “there is particularity in Jn 3:16.”
Thanks for post such provocative thoughts. One of my first posts on your blog was something along the lines of not being sure I would define God’s love of the ungodly. Your posts I helped think about this sublime issues.
Here is a good short link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKciLp1B3K0
Thanks for provoking diligence on this subject.
I also posted over at Dave's blog.
I have enjoyed watching you guys work through this. It is a good exercise.
The one note I will give (and I don't think either of you would disagree or are saying anything opposite of this, I think it just hasn't been said) is that God's love or hatred is not manifested in emotion, but rather action. So He can both love (let rain fall on elect and not elect) and hate (God hates the sin and the sinner) at the same time. The latter will simply not be an action that goes on for eternity, in other words His loving (non soteriological) action against the non elect will cease.
Also God's love is not obligatory. God is not required to love all men equally, just as you and I are not expected to love all women the same way we love our wives. (As I said over at Dave's blog, God has a term for that too!)
Anyway, just some of my thoughts.